E12Hammer 1:38 Mon Apr 9
Javier Hernandez
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So exactly how does Moyes get him into the team?
Natural goal scorer, who in another team would score close to 20 goals a season, just not for us it seems.
I think Arnautovic could play as a 10, but does that mean we sacrifice some width? Unless we play a 4-4-1-1, but Moyes likes playing 3 centre backs.
So that leaves us with a 3-5-1-1
..................... GK
...........CD ... CD ... CD
RWB ............DMF..........LWB
............CM ..............CM
......................AMF
.......................CF
Getting Hernandez into this set up isnt easy, as it seems to me that the choice is with either him or attacking width. Zabaleto is a good defensive right wing back, but hasnt got the legs to be offensive as well.
As much as I dont like Masuaku, he is a good wing back, gets forward, and gets his fair share of assists.
How would everyone else do it?
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Replies - Newest Posts First ( Show In Chronological Order)
Mart O
6:13 Fri Apr 13
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Anyone using the expression "the old onion bag" wants flogging.
Cough, take note, SON...
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jack flash
5:59 Fri Apr 13
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Far Cough 11:28 ~
"Possession means fuck all, goals in the old onion bag is what counts"
Perfectly true, you can have 100% possession kicking the ball to each other in your own third & never create any chances, so on it's own % of possession is a meaningless statistic
On the other hand if you have a high % of possession in the opponents third (& box) sooner or later a player like Hernandez will pop one or two in for you
Proven goalscorer he may be but he's no good playing up top on his own. He's not quick enough to run at the opposition & he's not robust enough or tall enough to engage in aerial battles
Most of the time our one striker up top gets isolated the way we play, which does not suit Hernandez's game one bit
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Swiss.
6:57 Thu Apr 12
Re: Javier Hernandez
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and btw that's pretty obvious
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Swiss.
6:57 Thu Apr 12
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Alex
"Arnautovic is a better striker, Hernandez is a better finisher."
yeah you could have just said that than write War and Peace
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charleyfarley
4:40 Thu Apr 12
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Thanks for clearing that up for us Alex
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Alex V
4:26 Thu Apr 12
Re: Javier Hernandez
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After8 4:13 Thu Apr 12
Clumsily worded, but we have been playing under Moyes a system where in practice we basically end up feeding the ball to Arnautovic somewhere near the box and hoping he does something with it, often with little or no support. He can turn a bad ball into a good chance, or be a threat at times in the air, makes runs on the flanks or in behind, and has a turn of pace. I don't think it's a good system of play for the top half cos it's too one-dimensional, but in a relegation scrap it's pretty sensible.
Arnau should probably have had more goals given the chances he's had, but at the same time it seems to be that he gets somewhere near double the amount of chances that Hernandez gets when he plays a similar role. I just checked and it's exactly double. Now if Hernandez was twice as likely to finish a chance it would be an argument (hard to tell that from the sample size), but then Hernandez as discussed doesn't really do anything else, he doesn't pressure a defence, he doesn't have a range of skills. In short, Arnautovic is a better striker, Hernandez is a better finisher.
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After8
4:13 Thu Apr 12
Re: Javier Hernandez
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"Even then, I think in practice it's been proven that Arnautovic can do more with those chances more often even if his finishing isn't as good."
Alex, could you explain what you mean?
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Westside
3:19 Wed Apr 11
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Hernandez and Arnautovic can play well together in the same side, as the win over Watford demonstrated.
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mallard
12:22 Wed Apr 11
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Sven Roeder 11:32 Tue Apr 10
That system worked really well, but we used a diamond midfield with an in form Alex Song. Don't think we currently have the players for that to work
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Sir Alf
11:52 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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If we had a Dembele, Kante or even Fernandino type with another alongside that is athletic and works hard, we would be transformed I think.
These players not only press and are strong and athletic they also have great passing and control ( technique). We have 2 or 3 players have only 1 of these attributes. Noble has the techniqueand works hard but lacks the physicality, strength and athleticism. Kouyate has to be worst midfielder in the league for passing and control. Fernandes does not work hard enough and lacks the physical strength. Obiang is knocked off the ball too easily at times although his work rate is good. His technique is erratic. Is generally good but has some real off days/
We simply need to invest very wisely in some real quality in the midfield not just for the first 11 but also think about back up when the inevitable injuries hit.
Get it right and I honestly think we would see a real upturn in performance and results with the ability to give the likes of Hernandez the kind of service he needs. IMHO of course
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Sven Roeder
11:32 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Apart from when we had the freakish Payet I thought our best structure was one Allardyce stumbled upon when he played Sahko and Valencia as split strikers starting from wide positions.
We beat Man City and Liverpool at home with it.
Basically no one plays centrally which centre halves don't like and when we don't have the ball they occupy the opposition full backs.
Arnautovic sort of plays like that now
Needs better quality in midfield and defenders that can move enough to play in a 4 .... ie not Zabaletta and Evra
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Far Cough
11:28 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Possession means fuck all, goals in the old onion bag is what counts
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,
11:22 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Liverpool have just beaten Man City by five goals to one over two legs.
Seeing as City had overall possession of 65% I cannot understand how they lost so heavily.
Oh and in Rome Barca had 57% possession against Roma and have just lost 3-0. Baffles me how the team which has so much of the ball contrives to lose.
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Alex V
10:48 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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>>> In order to accommodate that sort of player you need to dominate the midfield
I think he would have a better chance then, for sure. Just looking back at Opta's possession stats on whoscored, which go back to 2009, and we've not managed over 50% possession in any season. It's a crude stat that doesn't necessary just measure midfield domination, but it does underline that even if Hernandez would be more useful in more dominant midfield, we've not really been in the position to achieve that in... well at any time since the premiership started.
I think another way to get something out of him is simply to sit deep, keep it tight and hope that he can be set up on the rare counter-attack. A bit like what Sunderland did with Defoe at times. But it's not really a recipe for success imo - you'll tend to be a dour unambitious team very reliant on feeding off the smaller number of chances you'll create. Even then, I think in practice it's been proven that Arnautovic can do more with those chances more often even if his finishing isn't as good.
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jack flash
9:54 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Once in a while you get a striking combination that works incredibly well, almost like a telepathic understanding
That was the case with Arnautovic & Lanzini against Huddersfield (I know it was only Huddersfield but it was there for all to see)
I would keep that combination regardless
Hernandez will always score goals, he is the classic goal poacher with that uncanny habit of being in the right place at the right time
He is not the sort of player to make the chances for himself though
In order to accommodate that sort of player you need to dominate the midfield, which is something we seem to be unable or unwilling to do at present. The one exception to that this season was the Southampton game
The problem is not Hernadez but the weakness of our midfield being unable to retain possession for any length of time
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BRANDED
9:52 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Highlights fuck all you numb nut
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13 Brentford Rd
9:51 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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It's obvious that him & Arnie enjoy playing together and we have looked much better, in fact pretty dangerous when they have.
He must start IMHO, so Moyes must find a way. Given the injuries (we have fucking loads) and presuming Collins is still out?
I would have kept Oxford & Burke at the club esp once we knew Obiang was crocked and Fonte was being flogged. Stupid decision!
Highlights just how poor our squad is now......
Hart
Zabba Rice Oggy Masuaku
Noble Kouyate Fernandes
Lanzini
Hernandez Arnie
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Alex V
9:10 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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threesixty 6:33 Tue Apr 10
I think Noble is good on the ball, but opponents put pressure on us. I think realistically unless we're about to hop into the top four, we're going to be defending a lot and we need our defensive midfielders to primarily have the energy, strength and work-rate to cover back in front of the defence for long periods. If they can distribute simply and quickly then all the better.
It also depends on the formation going forward. Under Bilic and Allardyce it would tend to be three in midfield with a dedicated DM role, whereas right now it's a two man midfield neither of which I'd describe as dedicated DMs. We might just need 'midfielders' in general - that's up to those in charge to make a decision on what's best for the club going forward. I prefer a dedicated DM myself.
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zico
8:32 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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----------CF---------CF--------------
--------CM----CM-----CM---------
----------------DM-------------------
LB------CB---------CB--------RB
----------------GK-------------------
Only way I can think of fitting him in. Two in midfield would be suicide. However you do it we will have a weakness but I'd rather be weaker out wide than through the middle.
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Jasnik
8:08 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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Moyes likes playing 3 centre backs. --> not for the last two games he hasn't
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Alex V
8:06 Tue Apr 10
Re: Javier Hernandez
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>>> theres a chance they don't agree with you V son?
Very possibly. In which case (imo) they've misjudged him and his role and it's contributed to the team's weakness.
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